GO VOTE November 2!

[968crazy]

Again mark everyone rich or poor with our without insurance gets care in the hospitals in this country so dont pull that argument out it is invalid

[Twilight]

Punishing success and rewarding failure is insane.

[Mark Aubele]

You know what I want to see?  I want actual conversations between real people.  I don't want 10 second sound bites where each side tries to demonize the other.  If I have a small part in this whole democracy thing, I'd like it to be about restoring the ability for people to actually talk about issues rather than parrot off whatever crap the TV talking head is blathering on about today.  And just in case it isn't clear, I think Olbermann and his kind are just as bad as Glenn Beck and his buddies.  None of its productive and, I expect like you do, I see real problems that are going to need real solutions, not just people trying to get their sound bite on the news.

Mark

See, we do agree on something!   

[fx-man]

So continue the idea past that.  You're ok with poor people dying, but not rich people?  Remember that "poor" here can also be someone that's between jobs and has a heart attack.

What's your plan?  How do you take care of people that need care but don't have $$$$$$ to pay for it today?

Mark

The deal is the Federal Government is prohibited from doing many of these things by the constitution.  The Constitution does have an amendment process whereby if we believe they should be in charge of something we can amend it to provide them with that authority.  The problem is for way too long congress has just been ignoring they're limitations rather than amending to give themselves the authority.  The States don't have similar constitutional restrictions.  Healthcare could be accomplished on the state level.  Wanting to follow a lawful process in addressing an issue does not mean you're ok with poor people dying, that comparison is laughable.

[fx-man]

Oh crap I mentioned the constitution, according to homeland security I'm probably a domestic terrorist.

[Sam Strano]

Heard today on the radio.... Repubican for State House:  "don't let those people from Philadelphia take your guns away....".  Yeah, because ever time a Democrat is in any position of power we all have lost our ability to own firearms.  Hell, I'm a democrat, and I OWN a handgun.  It's scare tactics--and it works--and it's sad that it works.

As for Tea-Party... I find it laughable that anyone finds them refreshing, it's a bunch conservatives (which generally means Republican, but might not always) that are even more right wing than normal.  Look it up.  Hell, here's one of the founders of the Tea-Party and what he said:
"It began as a movement to take back the United States from corrupt politicians. The Tea Party movement has been hijacked by Republicans and is now all about guns, gods and gays. Karl Denninger of The Market Ticker was one of the original founders of the Tea Party and calls the direction of the group an absolute joke."

I find it laughable because it's pretty clear that many can't, or just don't want to, see it.

I have in the past voted for Republicans... and Independents too.  I'm not a straight ticket guy, when there is someone worth a damned.  In this case I think we are stuck with the lesser of two evils (and I think most everyone agrees with that).  But the answer isn't in the Tea Party...  Anyone, ANYONE who thinks that there should be essentially no government is fucking nuts.  And fwiw, technically an Anarchist since the definition of Anarchy is:  A social state in which there is no governing person or group of people, but each individual has absolute liberty (without the implication of disorder)."
Absence of government; a state of lawlessness due to the absence or inefficiency of the supreme power; political disorder.  Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere.

We hear about sealing out borders... I guess that'll get done for free?  How about the roads we drive on?  No government involvement there! 

Is there waste?  You bet--but it wasn't George and his buddies that put up websites so that funds can be followed and waste and corruption reported...  That's happened, there is a site like that for the Recovery Act (incidentally a move that might not have been necessary is Bush and his gang hadn't busted our Clinton surplus into a huge deficient in no time flat---not helped by a completely unfounded war that's cost billions, with a B folks.....  a *B*.  It wasn't Bush that upped VA's funding (and the D's are supposedly the anti-military bunch) by $1.4 Billion.   In fact I'm pretty sure he cut the VA's funding, funny (ironically funny that is) since Bush is responsible for getting a lot more injured soldiers into VA health care.....  Was it Bush that signed the Weapons Reform act to try and curtail fraud and overspending on weapons systems and contracts?  Nope, wasn't.  Who was it again that stomped all over our Civil Rights?  Oh yeah that was before 2008 as well, something called the Patriot Act....  I guess it was terrible that it's now illegal for health insurance company to deny you coverage if you have a pre-existing condition, how terrible!

Have there been mistakes?  Yep, everyone makes them, D,R, I....  Lets not pretend the USA is falling apart.  Vote, but for the love of god use your head.  Mark is 100% right, people need to talk--not talk in 10 second sound bytes.  See the first sentence of this post again.  That's what sound-bytes get you.  Bullshit. 

[Hunter]

So continue the idea past that.  You're ok with poor people dying, but not rich people?  Remember that "poor" here can also be someone that's between jobs and has a heart attack.

What's your plan?  How do you take care of people that need care but don't have $$$$$$ to pay for it today?

Mark

Family, Church?      You know at one time in our history not all that long ago we went to our family / community for help and not the government.

[fx-man]

Sam two things.  
1. Nobody is promoting no government.  
2. And the "tea party" types are as pissed at the GOP as the Dems.  


Why when somebody defends a progressive democrat they point to a progressive republican and say it all started with that guy?  Of course! Bush was a progressive too only with an R instead of a D after his name!

Oh and I'm a Libertarian and not a straight ticket guy either.

[roundel]

So continue the idea past that.  You're ok with poor people dying, but not rich people?  Remember that "poor" here can also be someone that's between jobs and has a heart attack.

When it is your time, it is your time.  I'm sure that person while employed purchased life insurance to provide for their family in their absence.

What's your plan?  How do you take care of people that need care but don't have $$$$$$ to pay for it today?

Who said life is fair? 

[fx-man]

I guess it was terrible that it's now illegal for health insurance company to deny you coverage if you have a pre-existing condition, how terrible!

No that's great!  Next they need to force the auto insurance companies to give you coverage after you've had an accident.

[Sam Strano]

So continue the idea past that.  You're ok with poor people dying, but not rich people?  Remember that "poor" here can also be someone that's between jobs and has a heart attack.

What's your plan?  How do you take care of people that need care but don't have $$$$$$ to pay for it today?

Mark

Family, Church?      You know at one time in our history not all that long ago we went to our family / community for help and not the government.

Family?  Not everyone has family that can care for them.  Church?  Please.  I guess it's better to hope that someone has pity on you and hope that you aren't left to rot. 

In short, I think the answer is "fuck them" Mark.  It's crap that anyone can get health care in this country.  You might get your cut stitched up if you have no money--but if you are truly sick--you're screwed unless you have your own insurance.  And hey, can't everyone afford it?  Jesus, I have it, and would like to keep it... but they are booting my Dad off because he's Medicare eligible, and because of how it's setup I'm losing mine too.  And I pay $14,556 a year for it, for the two of us.  Nice.  Even those of us with insurance and can afford it (and it's not always fun to pay that) get raked over at some point.  Nothing is perfect.   

[Sam Strano]

Sam two things.  
1. Nobody is promoting no government.  
2. And the "tea party" types are as pissed at the GOP as the Dems.  


Why when somebody defends a progressive democrat they point to a progressive republican and say it all started with that guy?  Of course! Bush was a progressive too only with an R instead of a D after his name!

Oh and I'm a Libertarian and not a straight ticket guy either.

The Tea-partiers are pissed at the R's because they aren't conservative enough...  They might be p.o.'ed at the r's, but not half as much as d's because they are a bunch of republicans themselves.  Nutty ones at that.  Palin?  Oh god. 

Bush wasn't progressive in any way but spending.  He talked a good game early on, and never delivered any of it.  And yet, it's not Bush that gets the fault for the spending?  I don't get it.  It's either Clinton's fault or Obama's.  Go figure.  If I bought a business that made money, took over, and it lost money I don't think that's on the former owner's head.  The fact is things went to hell prior to 2008 Elections.  The 9/11 stuff happened well after the 2000 Elections, yet for years we heard how that was Clinton's fault.  Why?  To SCARE people into voting for "those that can protect us".  That didn't work, so that party line has been dropped (and few seem to remember that).  Me thinks there is much speaking with forked tongue. 

[Sam Strano]

I'm now taking it somewhere else.... as it's politics and it the tag line on the section says "if it's porn, politics, or religion take it somewhere else".   So I'm done.    Apologies. 

[roundel]

I'm now taking it somewhere else.... as it's politics and it the tag line on the section says "if it's porn, politics, or religion take it somewhere else".   So I'm done.    Apologies. 

There seems to be a general "hall pass" on election day around here.  So long as it is something of an intellectual discussion and not a mud slinging personal attack - or taken as such.

We always toe dangerously close to that line on election day, I think. 

[rayzo]

"The funny thing is, one of the two major political parties clearly believes that America does not deserve its individual rights and freedoms and is trying to bring America down to the level of the rest of the world."

I hate to be a complete cynic, but neither party cares about individual rights and freedoms.   The are both Government Corprocrats or Corprolicans.   And now the Corporations can spend all they want to support their ideas.
Bush passed the Patriot act and took away many of our freedoms, and the Democrats have no interest in giving up any government power while they have it.   Obama takes our freedoms away with parts of the health act.  Local government put red light cameras up for purposes of highway robbery (literally).   Wait until they start to ticket you if you get across a state two quickly as you check in and out at the toll booths.   Individual freedoms are being eroded constantly.  

[Hunter]

Family?  Not everyone has family that can care for them.  Church?  Please.  I guess it's better to hope that someone has pity on you and hope that you aren't left to rot. 
 

At one time church was a huge part of peoples lives.  I do not go to church.  You were able to keep in contact with the community and people would help each other out.  Government has replaced the church.  It's how communism takes over a society.   That's the first thing they did in Russia closed the churches.  It's just happening slowly and in a different way here.  Your from Brookville.  I'm originally from New Bethlehem.  Do you remember when the coal industry died here in the late 80's.  I do.  A lot of our neighbors and my family lost their jobs when Redinger Coal closed up.  I'm glad we had family and friends to help us to get through it.

[968crazy]

who you define as nutty others think of as sane.  So that is only an opinion of some americans.  I guess who ever doesn't think the tea partiers are nutty must also be nutty.  Don't give clinton too much credit remember he had his hands tied by a republican congress.  Now we need to tie obamas hands and keep them out of the cookie jar.

[fx-man]

but they are booting my Dad off because he's Medicare eligible, and because of how it's setup I'm losing mine too.   

So you're complaining because your dad is going on govmt. healthcare?  Yet your keen on the rest of us going on it?  I've read the entire bill, when your dad is "past his useful service to society" and therefore a beauracrat decides he doesn't need that treatment because it doesn't fit the cost/benefit profile set forth in section 1364.23.435b then you can be happy that "everyone has healthcare"  I'm a partner in a small company and we currently pay 100% of healthcare insurance for 18 employees.  If all the provisions of this bill are enacted we will no longer be able to do that.  It will hurt us, our employees, and ultimately result in lower care quality for everyone involved.  I think we do need some healthcare reforms but this monstrosity is not good.  There is such a thing as making a situation worse because "you just have to do something."

[fx-man]

Wait until they start to ticket you if you get across a state two quickly as you check in and out at the toll booths.

NY tried that a couple of years back but relented when their EZ Pass subscription rate dropped by 70%

[roundel]

Wait until they start to ticket you if you get across a state two quickly as you check in and out at the toll booths.

NY tried that a couple of years back but relented when their EZ Pass subscription rate dropped by 70%

$$$$  >  Principles.